• M1

    From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to RYAN on Fri May 29 15:37:00 2020
    In spite of any differences you and I have had in the past...I guess we have one thing in common. I want an M1 badly.

    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)


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  • From ryan@VERT/MONTEREY to Dumas Walker on Sat May 30 02:45:00 2020
    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)

    I thought they were a few hundred bucks for a shooter grade?

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to ryan on Sat May 30 07:47:00 2020
    ryan wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)

    I thought they were a few hundred bucks for a shooter grade?

    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Sat May 30 11:16:00 2020
    Re: M1
    By: Dumas Walker to RYAN on Fri May 29 2020 03:37 pm

    In spite of any differences you and I have had in the past...I guess we ha one thing in common. I want an M1 badly.

    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * Peter Steele and Armand, vampire -- separated at birth?

    Carbines didn't excite me when me when I was younger and the prices were more reasonable. The M1's I fired were in "field" condition, and I already had a Ruger Mini-14 so their design and means of operation was no surprise. An M1 re-chambered for .300 Blackout would be awesome, however the magazines and
    mag well in the receiver are too short to make it work. I ran into a similar problem with converting an SKS over to 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel's parent
    case is a 7.62x39 necked down to 6.5mm, so it sounds simple. The 6.5
    bullets are longer, so overall cartridge length is too long to fit in an
    SKS magazine. Maybe the next AR I build will be a 6.5 Grendel.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sat May 30 23:45:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Gamgee to ryan on Sat May 30 2020 07:47 am

    ryan wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)

    I thought they were a few hundred bucks for a shooter grade?

    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.


    ... Do NOT look into laser with remaining eyeball.

    For a little more you can get a Fulton Armory or Inland replica made with mode rn metallurgy and machining methods rather than a near 80 year old rifle made in a plant that was cranking out "good enough for war" toleranced rifles
    every 30 seconds.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sun May 31 07:34:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Me, too, but I can never afford one that is in working order. :)

    I thought they were a few hundred bucks for a shooter grade?

    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.

    For a little more you can get a Fulton Armory or Inland replica
    made with mode rn metallurgy and machining methods rather than a
    near 80 year old rifle made in a plant that was cranking out
    "good enough for war" toleranced rifles every 30 seconds.

    Yeah.... I'll take the 80-year-old one. Thanks.



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  • From ryan@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Sun May 31 13:38:00 2020
    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.

    Gotcha. Well, the cool thing is that a shooter M1 is also a wall hanger, so it's multitalented. lol.

    What's CMP?

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sun May 31 16:21:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun May 31 2020 07:34 am


    Yeah.... I'll take the 80-year-old one. Thanks.


    I prefer the newer version because of modern metallurgy and machining. Depending on when during the war older guns were made, the quality of steel
    may be questioable, whereas modern chrome-moly steel will last way longer and cnc-milled parts would be easier to replace (if ever needed)rather than have
    to be hand fit due to parts being milled or ground on machines that required being smacked by a hammer to be adjusted.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to ryan on Sun May 31 21:43:00 2020
    ryan wrote to Gamgee <=-

    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.

    Gotcha. Well, the cool thing is that a shooter M1 is also a wall
    hanger, so it's multitalented. lol.

    What's CMP?

    The Civilian Marksmanship Program.

    AFAIK, the only "authorized" place to get a certified M1. Of
    course you can get them at gun shows and some gun shops too, but
    these are officially sanctioned sales. The CMP does LOTS of other
    things as well, including the highest levels of competitive
    shooting.

    Just took a quick look and most of the Garand models are sold out,
    and have been for a while. More info here:

    https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sun May 31 21:44:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Yeah.... I'll take the 80-year-old one. Thanks.

    I prefer the newer version because of modern metallurgy and
    machining. Depending on when during the war older guns were made,
    the quality of steel may be questioable, whereas modern
    chrome-moly steel will last way longer and cnc-milled parts would
    be easier to replace (if ever needed)rather than have to be hand
    fit due to parts being milled or ground on machines that required
    being smacked by a hammer to be adjusted.

    Yep, all true.

    I'll still take the old one.



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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to ryan on Mon Jun 1 11:50:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: ryan to Gamgee on Sun May 31 2020 01:38 pm

    For one that you would actually want, and be safe to shoot, it's
    in the neighborhood of 1000-1200. This is from the CMP, which is
    the only place that I would buy one.

    Gotcha. Well, the cool thing is that a shooter M1 is also a wall hanger, so it's multitalented. lol.

    What's CMP?

    CMP is the Civilian marksmanship program, the offspring of the former
    governemt branch known as the Department of civilian marksmanship. The
    groups conducts matches and is the clearing house for old firearms owned by
    the US armed forces. If you have a true Krag, Springfield, Garand, Carbine
    or 1911, chances are it was sold throught CMP/DCM. Back during the Clinton administration Clinton tried killing of the program by stopping funding.

    The NRA and members of congress came up with a way for them to be privatized and self sufficient. In the past old rifle were sold at a flat rate across
    the board. Under the new operation, the more desirable and rare models could be sold for higher prices. It wa sslim pickings for awhile, then we got
    about 100,000 M1 Garands and carbines back from the Phillipines. There was a warehouse with 250,000 1911's that the gov wanted to scrap and melt, and the C MP also gaiuned access to sell them off as well.

    Obama blocked the return of over 700,000 M1 Garands to return to the US. He s aid Korea can't import weapons, however technically they are US property
    coming back. It was speculated if that many vintage rifles flooded into the market, that would've pushed the average price from $1100 to $200-$500usd.

    Still pisses me off he got away with it. The Garand complied to all previous laws regarding importation and ownership.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Mon Jun 1 19:41:00 2020
    Yep, all true.

    I'll still take the old one.

    After reading the posts from you both, I am thinking two would be best...
    one for regular shooting, and the other for historical display (and
    sometimes shooting!). <grin>

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire them for the history element.


    * SLMR 2.1a * ...Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Mickey, Goofey...

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Tue Jun 2 06:46:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to ryan <=-

    Still pisses me off he got away with it. The Garand complied to all previous laws regarding importation and ownership.

    And, it's a beautiful rifle!




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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dumas Walker on Tue Jun 2 07:55:00 2020
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Yep, all true.
    I'll still take the old one.

    After reading the posts from you both, I am thinking two would be
    best... one for regular shooting, and the other for historical
    display (and sometimes shooting!). <grin>

    Sounds like the perfect solution! ;-)

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.



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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Jun 2 18:08:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jun 02 2020 07:55 am

    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Yep, all true.
    I'll still take the old one.

    After reading the posts from you both, I am thinking two would be best... one for regular shooting, and the other for historical
    display (and sometimes shooting!). <grin>

    Sounds like the perfect solution! ;-)

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.



    ... Forbidden fruit is responsible for many a bad jam.

    In the mid 1950's when the 7.62x51 nato cartidge came out, it used modern
    ball shaped propellants that allowed it to match the performance of the existing .30-06 ammo. New manufactured .30-06 runs at a higher pressure
    range and is about 100fps faster than the government loads. There is some surplus ammo made by other countries that fielded the Garand out there, but I haven't looked into it. I have .308 and .30-06 dies and load my own.

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  • From Weatherman@VERT/TLCBBS to Gamgee on Tue Jun 2 23:29:00 2020
    Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    I've read on the interweb that commercial ammo with bullet weights of 150 grains or less (although Hornady has a 168 grain load that is Garand friendly) is suitable for feeding to your Garand. I have purchased quite a bit of M2 equivalent ammo from http://www.ammogarand.com and had good results with it. They are also a good source for bandoleers, en bloc clips, slings and some other odds and ends M1.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-


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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to DUMAS WALKER on Tue Jun 2 07:36:00 2020
    DUMAS WALKER wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Yep, all true.

    I'll still take the old one.

    After reading the posts from you both, I am thinking two would be
    best... one for regular shooting, and the other for historical display (and sometimes shooting!). <grin>

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without worrying
    about something happening to it, while I also admire them for the
    history element.

    As of RIGHT NOW, I have no interest in the M1, but I can SURELY appreciate
    the historical appeal! I'm in the market for an SKS for that very reason.
    :-)

    And I read an article today about Brownell's M16 Proto - but that's too
    much for me to spend. :-)




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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wed Jun 3 10:37:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    In the mid 1950's when the 7.62x51 nato cartidge came out, it
    used modern ball shaped propellants that allowed it to match the performance of the existing .30-06 ammo. New manufactured .30-06
    runs at a higher pressure range and is about 100fps faster than
    the government loads. There is some surplus ammo made by other
    countries that fielded the Garand out there, but I haven't looked
    into it. I have .308 and .30-06 dies and load my own.

    Nice. I hope to get around to reloading one day... probably not
    till I retire though.

    I have shot quite a bit of the surplus Greek HXP ammo for the
    Garand that the CMP sells. Seems to be good stuff.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Weatherman on Wed Jun 3 10:39:00 2020
    Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    I've read on the interweb that commercial ammo with bullet
    weights of 150 grains or less (although Hornady has a 168 grain
    load that is Garand friendly) is suitable for feeding to your
    Garand. I have purchased quite a bit of M2 equivalent ammo from http://www.ammogarand.com and had good results with it. They are
    also a good source for bandoleers, en bloc clips, slings and some
    other odds and ends M1.

    Good info, thanks. Wasn't aware of that website but will be
    checking it out.

    I have shot quite a bit of the surplus Greek HXP ammo that the CMP
    sells for the Garand, and it seems to work well.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to JIMMY ANDERSON on Wed Jun 3 11:04:00 2020
    JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to DUMAS WALKER <=-

    As of RIGHT NOW, I have no interest in the M1, but I can SURELY
    appreciate the historical appeal! I'm in the market for an SKS
    for that very reason. :-)

    SKS's are a lot of fun, and relatively cheap to shoot for fun.

    The good thing is that the ammo will also fit the AK-47 when you
    get one of those, and the Ruger Mini-30 when you get that. ;-)



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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Weatherman on Wed Jun 3 19:10:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Weatherman to Gamgee on Tue Jun 02 2020 11:29 pm

    Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    I've read on the interweb that commercial ammo with bullet weights of 150 grains or less (although Hornady has a 168 grain load that is Garand friendl is suitable for feeding to your Garand. I have purchased quite a bit of M2 equivalent ammo from http://www.ammogarand.com and had good results with it. They are also a good source for bandoleers, en bloc clips, slings and some other odds and ends M1.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-


    ... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960

    Bullet weight makes no diffeernce. It's the powder charge that determines the
    pressure. 147-150 grain fmj is standard combat bullet, and some allied nations produced tons of it at the mil spec "Garand friendly" pressure.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to JIMMY ANDERSON on Wed Jun 3 19:31:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: JIMMY ANDERSON to DUMAS WALKER on Tue Jun 02 2020 07:36 am

    DUMAS WALKER wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Yep, all true.

    I'll still take the old one.

    After reading the posts from you both, I am thinking two would be best... one for regular shooting, and the other for historical display (and sometimes shooting!). <grin>

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire them for the history element.

    As of RIGHT NOW, I have no interest in the M1, but I can SURELY appreciate the historical appeal! I'm in the market for an SKS for that very reason. :-)

    And I read an article today about Brownell's M16 Proto - but that's too
    much for me to spend. :-)




    ... Taglines void where prohibited.

    For a little more than a chi-com SKS you could part together an M4 clone
    AR15. The barrel is the biggest cost, and sometimes I have found Mossberg bar rels for $100. A rifle can be built for under $500 easily, however this may involve parts made overseas of questionable tolerances and quality.

    I like the Brownells retro models as well, but feel their asking prices are a touch on the high side. After the 2012 Middletown shooting, parts in general dried up, and all the cheap retro A1 and A2 receivers and hardware became valauble and dried up as well. My brother bought a surplus Air Force M16
    spare parts kit for $349 IIRC all it need was a lower receiver and fire control group. The buffer, buffer spring and bolt carrier group may have been left out too.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Wed Jun 3 19:46:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Wed Jun 03 2020 10:37 am

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    In the mid 1950's when the 7.62x51 nato cartidge came out, it
    used modern ball shaped propellants that allowed it to match the performance of the existing .30-06 ammo. New manufactured .30-06
    runs at a higher pressure range and is about 100fps faster than
    the government loads. There is some surplus ammo made by other countries that fielded the Garand out there, but I haven't looked
    into it. I have .308 and .30-06 dies and load my own.

    Nice. I hope to get around to reloading one day... probably not
    till I retire though.

    I have shot quite a bit of the surplus Greek HXP ammo for the
    Garand that the CMP sells. Seems to be good stuff.


    ... I'll be unstoppable when I get started.

    I hear good things about the Greek surplus

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  • From Weatherman@VERT/TLCBBS to Moondog on Sun Jun 7 01:59:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Weatherman <=-

    Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which
    is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    I've read on the interweb that commercial ammo with bullet weights of 150 grains or less (although Hornady has a 168 grain load that is Garand friendl is suitable for feeding to your Garand. I have purchased quite a bit of M2 equivalent ammo from http://www.ammogarand.com and had good results with it. They are also a good source for bandoleers, en bloc clips, slings and some other odds and ends M1.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-


    Bullet weight makes no diffeernce. It's the powder charge that determines the
    pressure. 147-150 grain fmj is standard combat bullet, and some
    allied nations produced tons of it at the mil spec "Garand friendly" pressure.

    I see, so the inertial mass makes no difference in the chamber pressure profile nor does the bearing surface of the heavier weight bullet. You've an amazing grasp of physics. Guess all my reloading manuals showing reduced powder loads for heavier weight bullets are no good and should be thrown out the window. As I understand it, the issue is not the actual peak chamber pressure, but rather when it occurs in relation to the bullet's path down the barrel. I shall recognize you as the all-knowing, omniscient god of all things reloading, yet will still defer to the judgement of those who have owned, shot, and loaded for the revered M1 Garand rifle.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Weatherman on Mon Jun 8 16:20:00 2020
    Re: Re: M1
    By: Weatherman to Moondog on Sun Jun 07 2020 01:59 am

    Moondog wrote to Weatherman <=-

    Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    I think that because I would want one I could shoot without
    worrying about something happening to it, while I also admire
    them for the history element.

    Good points. Just as an FYI, they do make special ammo just for
    an "original" (or partly original such as one from the CMP), which is slightly less "hot" than current commercial .30-06 ammo. I
    don't think there are any safety issues with an older one if you
    are careful to use that type of ammo.

    I've read on the interweb that commercial ammo with bullet weights of 150 grains or less (although Hornady has a 168 grain load that is Garand frie is suitable for feeding to your Garand. I have purchased quite a bit of equivalent ammo from http://www.ammogarand.com and had good results with They are also a good source for bandoleers, en bloc clips, slings and som other odds and ends M1.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-


    Bullet weight makes no diffeernce. It's the powder charge that determines the
    pressure. 147-150 grain fmj is standard combat bullet, and some allied nations produced tons of it at the mil spec "Garand friendly" pressure.

    I see, so the inertial mass makes no difference in the chamber pressure prof nor does the bearing surface of the heavier weight bullet. You've an amazin grasp of physics. Guess all my reloading manuals showing reduced powder loa for heavier weight bullets are no good and should be thrown out the window. I understand it, the issue is not the actual peak chamber pressure, but rath when it occurs in relation to the bullet's path down the barrel. I shall recognize you as the all-knowing, omniscient god of all things reloading, ye will still defer to the judgement of those who have owned, shot, and loaded the revered M1 Garand rifle.

    Regards,
    -==*>Weatherman<*==-

    ... 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
    Forgive me for my choice of words.

    You are correct in terms of powder speed and initial pressure curve being critical with an M1 gas system. Again, my choice of how pressure was applied wasn't properly phrased.

    The point I started with was relying solely on the bullet's weight to
    determine if a round was safe to use was a poor decision, as ammo loaded with modern (post WWII) powders may be fine in any other rifle than an M1. The
    M1's gas system was designed around using a 147-173 grain proijectile pushed
    by a mid range powder such as IMR 4895. I use powders such as IMR 3031 and BL C-2 which would be fine in lighter bullets in a .30-06, however they would be
    a bit too fast for an M1. IMR 4895 or IMR 4064 are much better choices.

    Even amongst similar speed powders the pressure curve is not equal. The origi nal M16 ran like a top when ran with a powder such as IMR 3031, but when McNamera's whiz kids thought they'd save money by substituting it with a surplus powder from recycled poweder from tearn down ammo (BLC-2
    equivalent)the bolt carrier group would cease to unlock. Changing the buffer design resolved it's sensitivity to the pressure curve.

    By the way, thank you. I do appreciate the corection.

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