• Re: Running linux in vm o

    From Chai@VERT/FRUGALBB to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 20:35:00 2018
    Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean
    Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing
    their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    It should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recent
    Apple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques.
    It's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac line doesn't get much attention at the WWDC.


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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Chai on Wed Oct 17 23:41:20 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pm

    Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops.

    Maybe desktops doesn't include laptops?

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Chai on Thu Oct 18 09:31:19 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pm

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies
    sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean
    Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    It should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recent Apple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques. It's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac line doesn't get much attention at the WWDC.

    eh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktops altogether. And by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? I can't imagine that not enough people would want those that Apple would decide to drop them. There are still types of work that I think are easiest on that kind of device. Also, I could see people adding a keyboard and a mouse to a tablet, and at that point it becomes basically like a laptop anyway.

    But then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their time in the past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time when people still used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided to remove optical drives from their computers (and they never did even have blu-ray drives).

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Sun Oct 21 18:50:03 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Chai on Thu Oct 18 2018 09:31:19

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    eh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktops altogether. And by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? I can't imagine that not enough people would want those that Apple would decide to drop them. There are still types of work that I think are easiest on that kind of device. Also, I could see people adding a keyboard and a mouse to a tablet, and at that point it becomes basically like a laptop anyway.

    But then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their time in the past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time when people still used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided to remove optical drives from their computers (and they never did even have blu-ray drives).

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Just a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where he acknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, and that they were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Mac Pro that would be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted. Since that machine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping the desktop line.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Mon Oct 22 09:53:23 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Sun Oct 21 2018 06:50 pm

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Yeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive as standard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS X to burn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.

    Just a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where he acknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, and that they were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Mac Pro that would be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted. Since that machine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping the desktop line.

    I always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Some of Apple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easy upgradeability as a feature.

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Mon Oct 22 21:24:18 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:53:23

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Yeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive as standard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS X to burn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.

    The ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There are external USB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to and reading burned blu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is another story. There ARE a few pieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and some other bits, that'll do it, but it usually isn't cheap, and kind of not worth it when you can just download a digital file of the same quality.

    I always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Some of Apple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easy upgradeability as a feature.

    I still have my old Quicksilver G4, which I've upgraded and maxed out over the years. Despite the fact that it can't run any version of OSX over 10.5, I've found that it's still a perfectly solid workhorse for stuff like email, web browsing, even watching YouTube videos (beefier-than-stock video card, 1.5GB of RAM, and dual 1Ghz G4s can actually pull it off, at least at 480p) is entirely doable. And, good lord, that graphite case is sex-ay.

    I guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandable system, in that lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it rather than buy next years' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Apple of their desired profit.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Tue Oct 23 10:11:56 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:24 pm

    The ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There are external USB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to and reading burned blu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is another story. There ARE a few pieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and some other bits, that'll do it, but it usually isn't cheap, and kind of not worth it when you can just download a digital file of the same quality.

    Interesting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in when Macs never included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OS wouldn't necessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since there can also be software just for burning to optical discs. Windows has been able to burn to optical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to using software such as Nero to burn optical discs.

    I guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandable system, in that lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it rather than buy next years' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Apple of their desired profit.

    I dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but I think upgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn't upgradable, I'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead. So upgradability can be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you need more RAM or hard drive space, or might want to put in a more powerful graphics card, and it can be useful to be able to do that. Speaking of that, I'm not sure what graphics cards are available for Mac these days, or if you can even replace them..

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Tue Oct 23 17:02:48 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Tue Oct 23 2018 10:11:56

    Interesting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in when Macs never included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OS wouldn't necessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since there can also be software just for burning to optical discs. Windows has been able to burn to optical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to using software such as Nero to burn optical discs.

    They definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an external blu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). And there in my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-ray holds. I eventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-ray just for the burning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it, so it might eventually be a second HD in there.

    I dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but I think upgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn't upgradable, I'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead.
    So upgradability can be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you need more RAM or hard drive space, or might want to put in a more powerful graphics card, and it can be useful to be able to do that. Speaking of that, I'm not sure what graphics cards are available for Mac these days, or if you can even replace them..

    Back in the PowerPC Mac days, if you wanted to use a non-Mac-specific video card, you usually needed to flash the ROM or firmware or whatever on it in order to make it play nice with the architecture. I did that once or twice.

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Wed Oct 24 08:37:05 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Tue Oct 23 2018 05:02 pm

    They definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an external blu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). And there in my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-ray holds. I eventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-ray just for the burning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it, so it might eventually be a second HD in there.

    Yeah, I bought a laptop several years ago, and I opted to have them put in a 2nd hard drive in place of the optical drive (it was an option with Lenovo) since I don't use optical drives a whole lot in a PC anymore. My desktop has a blu-ray burner that I put in it when I built it though, and these days I do use it sometimes for ripping music and movies. I still have a bunch of burnable DVD-Rs, CD-Rs, and blu-ray writeable discs, and I've thought of using some of them for backups. Sometimes I still feel like a backup on an optical disc is more secure than a backup on a hard drive, because files on a hard drive could be deleted accidentally, whereas a backup on an optical disc is permanent.

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

    Yeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers for Mac make drivers that you can install like on Windows.

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Wed Oct 24 13:33:03 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Wed Oct 24 2018 08:37:05

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

    Yeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers for Mac make drivers that you can install like on Windows.

    Surprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards that aren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is that Apple was really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, where you could have video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac via Thunderbolt, so they tossed support for as many as they could in there. Though, efficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usually waaaay better than the Mac drivers.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Wed Oct 24 15:20:38 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Wed Oct 24 2018 01:33 pm

    Surprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards that aren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is that Apple was really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, where you could have video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac via Thunderbolt, so they tossed support for as many as they could in there. Though, efficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usually waaaay better than the Mac drivers.

    Interesting.. IMO the OS shouldn't necessarily include a ton of drivers for everything though, because chances are the user won't install most of that hardware. Having those drivers on hand would just be wasted space. Often, for Windows at least, the hardware maker provides drivers for people to download and install when installing one of their pieces of hardware. I know a lot of hardware vendors do submit drivers to be included in Windows, but I think that's mainly for Windows to have a base of commonly included hardware in PCs, for things like hard drive controllers, USB ports, onboard audio, etc.. I imagine Mac OS would need a lot fewer drivers included since Apple is the only company that builds Macs and doesn't officially allow Mac clones.

    Nightfox

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  • From Jagossel@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Fri Oct 26 08:39:24 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 2018 17:08:42

    I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs on ARM but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I thought it was st in development, and that PC makers were still working on ARM-based Windows devices.

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    Who knows...


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 09:56:55 2018
    Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Fri Oct 26 2018 08:39 am

    I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs
    on ARM but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I
    thought it was st in development, and that PC makers were still
    working on ARM-based Windows devices.

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    Windows 8 RT was a separate thing. It did run on ARM, but the problem was that it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps, which people didn't find useful. I think people also found it confusing, since it was a version of Windows that didn't run any of the regular Windows desktop software. So it didn't sell well and it was pulled off the market. Microsoft is trying again with this ARM verson of Windows 10 though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 10:07:02 2018
    Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Nightfox to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 2018 09:56 am

    Here are a couple of pages on this: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-here-stay-whether-you-it-or-not

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Jagossel on Sat Oct 27 11:28:00 2018
    On 10-26-18 08:39, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows
    8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and
    Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    I think when people see "Windows", they expect to be able to do everything on it that they can on their (Windows) desktop or laptop, while Windows RT, from what I understand was an experience that was more like using a tablet - limited app selection, etc.


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 11:30:00 2018
    On 10-26-18 09:56, Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?


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  • From Chai@VERT/FRUGALBB to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 17:14:00 2018
    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in
    terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get
    it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Vk3jed on Mon Oct 29 09:48:32 2018
    Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 2018 11:30 am

    though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will
    run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for
    compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Chai on Mon Oct 29 10:04:20 2018
    Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Chai to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 2018 05:14 pm

    What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.

    I believe battery life is a main advantage, and perhaps performance per watt. Intel's processors with their 10 nanometer manufacturing technology has been significantly delayed, and I think some companies are worried that Intel is stagnating.

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Wed Oct 31 10:41:00 2018
    On 10-29-18 09:48, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit
    option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

    Hard to tell. The tipping point will be when memory requirements start to exceed a few GB for a single instance, then 64 bit will become highly advantageous, same if we see a lot of common software manipulating lots of huge numbers or data structures.


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